Second Time’s the Charm
At LoveWorthy, we’ve been thinking about different ways to tell great love stories, and so we decided to get this blog going, inviting interesting people with unique perspectives on romance and relationships to share with us. This week we are going to begin with an interview that I had the honor of conducting with Pam and Norm. These two love birds have been together for about a year, engaged for two months, and just got married this past July. Check this out, though – she’s 78 and he’s 80. Check THIS out, though – they were previously engaged when she was 17 and he was 19, but they broke it off and didn’t communicate for a half-century before rekindling. By the way, because I know you horoscope freaks are out there, Pam is a Taurus and Norm is a Pisces. The newlyweds and I had an amazing conversation about faith, partnership, and patience – hope you enjoy!
Gabriel: Okay you two. So first of all, congratulations! This is obviously not a typical trajectory, to say the least! Why did you guys wind up splitting the first time?
Pam: It didn’t work out the first time because he is a good Catholic and I had a child. They didn’t like me a lot. But Norm is a very devout Catholic, and that’s the way he wants to live.
Norm: In order to marry in the Catholic church, Pam would have had to go through an annulment process, and that’s kind of an iffy thing because a tribunal reviews all the facts to see if she knew what she was doing. If they say that the marriage was valid, then there’s no annulment. Now an annulment could have been granted; she was so young that it could have been determined that she didn’t understand what marriage was. But back then, the Catholic Church frowned upon Catholic people marrying non-Catholics. I could have married her, but then I wouldn’t have been able to receive any sacraments from the Catholic Church.
Gabriel: Pam, what was your religious affiliation at the time, if any?
Pam: I was a Protestant, still am.
Norm: We were very serious about getting married; we even got to the point where we put a down payment on a house, thinking that the church would see things our way. But the process could have taken two years and then she would have had to study and take these classes. Things have changed, though. The main difference now is that a bishop signs a dispensation and then I can marry a non-Catholic. That wasn’t the case sixty years ago.
Pam: Some things have changed, but some haven’t. Norm’s priest still wants me to raise any children we have Catholic. I told him I’m probably not going to be having any more kids.
Gabriel: Wow. So that was that. What a tragedy!
Norm: We had a wonderful relationship. As far as relationships are concerned, we had the best.
Gabriel: Was there any communication in the ensuing years?
Pam: None. No touch. He lived in Northern California, I lived in Southern California and Las Vegas. We didn’t cross paths.
Norm: When we started dating early on, we took pictures at a studio of the three of us, me, Pam, and Kim, Pam’s baby. Individual 8 x 11s, and I kept Pam’s picture and Kim’s picture. I kept them even after I got married. But I couldn’t keep them at home, so I kept them at my parents’ home in this little box with all this memorabilia, all this stuff from the service. My dad kept it. Of course they had met Pam and Kim. I told my dad “Don’t let anyone open this box. No one needs to know what’s in there.” Every year when I’d see my dad, he would ask me, “Do you ever hear from Pam and Kim?” And I’d say, “No, Pop, I haven’t heard from her.” The only contact we had was through her best friend Jackie one time because I stopped her and wrote her a ticket.
Pam: Every once in a while if I saw a highway patrolman, I would think of him.
Norm: Obviously I missed her. But I was being a good husband. I hope I was. I didn’t want to start thinking about another woman. But it was just fond memories. I often thought about her. And of course there was a lot of time in between until that next contact.
Gabriel: How did you wind up rekindling in your late 70’s?
Norm: My wife had passed away. I’m living in this big house by myself. I don’t normally answer the house phone. But one day, the phone rings, and I figure, maybe I’ll answer it, see who it is. I picked up the phone and the voice said “Is this the Norm Chavez residence?” And I said, “Is this Pamela Kay?” We started a conversation. I found out she lived in Vegas. I go to Albuquerque every year for the balloon fiesta. I had told her that maybe sometime when I go through Vegas I would call and maybe we could talk, and kind of catch up on life’s journey. Three years went by, I called her once, and we had a wonderful lunch. I don’t remember what we ate, but we had a wonderful conversation. I was very happy finding out about her and her finding out about me, and it was just nice. When we left, I gave her a little side hug, I didn’t want her to think I was trying to get something going.
Gabriel: Pam, how did you feel about the side hug?
Pam: I was nervous. Women think about things differently than men. Maybe he’ll feel that I’m a little fat right there.
Norm: That first time was pure friendship. I said “I’ll call you next time.” Two years later. I asked her out to dinner, and she said no thank you.
Gabriel: Why did you decline dinner?
Pam: I didn’t have my face on.
Norm: After my wife passed, I was dating a lady from church, and it wasn’t going good, but it was nice to have company. And anyway, finally one day we split, and I was alone, and I got to thinking about Pam, and I thought I’ve been so rude, I haven’t called her back, and I decided I would call her back. I told her I was no longer attached to anybody. I wanted to know more about her. That first time we were in the car together, we had said everything about the weather already. I think those first few miles we were very nervous. But then everything changed. I wasn’t anxious, I wasn’t nervous, I wasn’t eager or not eager enough, it just felt very comfortable to be with her and talk to her. We just had wonderful conversations. We got a chance to go down memory lane. I think that was the start of a blooming relationship. I was very happy to talk to her again. We talked about everything – our lives, our likes and dislikes. A lot of things that made me think – I’ve been missing this. Pam is very loving, very kind, very generous, she’s got a big heart. And I saw that in her, more so now as an adult than when we were together. When you’re young, things happen differently. I’m sure she was just as kind and loving and giving, but I don’t know that I saw that in the same way that I was able to as an adult, where I looked back and said boy, I think I made a mistake. I was very pleased and happy to be in her company. That was the start of it, we stayed in touch, I said we should spend more time together, get to know each other. It was a whirlwind of a relationship that was probably always there, but I never felt it – we were in a different world.
Gabriel: That’s so beautiful. Pam, tell me about your exes.
Pam: Well they’re not all in Texas. My first marriage lasted about five months. I was pregnant, it just didn’t work. The second one had a wife-beating problem. Next one was a nice guy, he didn’t beat me or anything, but he passed away. And then I got married and I shoulda known better because he was a womanizer. One wasn’t enough. And the last one was out of sheer desperation because I was running out of money and that was my survival. That didn’t work obviously.
Gabriel: That’s so awful. I’m really sorry you went through that. Eve told me you were in a lot of pain, but since you reconnected with Norm, your pain is almost gone, and love revived you.
Pam: It did. My daughter says that Norm saved my life, because I would have just given up. Now I get dressed every day.
Norm: As soon as Pam called me, everything changed. Throughout our relationship, we’ve been blessed. Two people who respect each other and love each other and respect each other’s different opinions and don’t argue about it, get more out of life. It’s a wonderful new life.
Gabriel: How do people react when they find out you’ve tied the knot at your age?
Norm: One of my friends told me, “Why don’t you just shack up?”
Pam: I had to go through this annulment process with the church, and then I had to take these marital classes with the church, about forty hours. It’s been so difficult. And every time we think we have everything together, we don’t. Now they want this final paper. So people think, “Why go through that at your age?” And I’m going through that because that’s the way Norm wants to live. I respect his faith. It’s a big part of him, so that’s the way it’s going to be.
Norm: And I appreciate it. I really do. Pam doesn’t always go with me to church, and I respect that. I can’t expect her to because of what happened before. Because she was thoroughly hurt.
Pam: Yeah I was mad at the Catholic Church.
Norm: There are a lot of hoops, but I keep telling her, “The Lord will take care of us.”
Gabriel: So tell me about the wedding. How was it? Give me some deets.
Pam: We got married on July 29th. There were 85 people. I wore a dress, but not white. It was dusty rose. My two girls gave me away – they wore burgundy.
Norm: My son was my best man.
Gabriel: Do you have any advice for people who haven’t found their person yet but really want to?
Pam: The advice I’d probably give is that God has a plan for you, and it will come to fruition.
Norm: Don’t push the river – it flows by itself.
Gabriel: I love that.
Norm: When we dated the first time, we never had an argument. And since we’ve been together this time, we’ve also not had an argument. We enjoy each other’s company. My desire is to be with her. Did I want to be with her when I was young, heck yes. But that was different. Now I want to be part of her and I want her to be part of me. It’s a whole different viewpoint at 80. We enjoy each other, I respect her, and I fell in love with her! This time the real thing.
Gabriel: I’m not crying, you’re crying.